Curse

Gli · Mar 22, 2009, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by w00t!

HoM and Chaos gloves are excellent recent examples of gold sinks. Providing items that offer no material benefit other than "bling factor" are an excellent way of removing wealth from an economy with limitless supply.

Absolutely. I'd be down a couple of hundred ecto if I could stand to look at Chaos gloves, or even if they could be 'HoMmed'.

Malice Black · Mar 22, 2009, 12:31 PM // 12:31

The old school traders and I done this many years ago with a lot more cash. Not a new idea, oh and makes little difference.

REDdelver · Mar 23, 2009, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

While I agree that Fluf Fluff was VERY generous (tons of money just given away - the thread was amazing) it doesn't solve any "Economy" problems. It just causes lazy players to run rampant. Why? Because why should they WORK for their in-game cash? Fluf Fluff or some other patron will just Welfare it to them.

Nice gesture, I'm not knocking Fluf Fluff - they can do what they want to with their in-game cash and from what I saw in that Thread, FF is just a very, very generous person (kudos) - but that doesn't do a damn thing to better the GW economy. It's GW Welfare or GW Socialism, take your pick. Players who cba to earn money on their own now have the idiotic idea that players who have worked hard for their personal fortunes should now just "hand it over becuz Fluf Fluff did it" and have now become the underbelly of GW - the beggars and lazy idlers.

It also doesn't push demand for anything higher. Redistribution of the supply of wealth doesn't mean that supply got any lower, it just got spread out.

WOW, you really should read.

1. I never said anything about Fluf Fluff genorousity fixes anything about the Economy. Got that? The whole notion that people want to control a "Make believe economy" is asinine. Its not a real economy!!!!!!! ITS FAKE. And even if it was real, the mere fact that the premise to keep certain things higher in value so you can be greedy and MAKE MORE MONEY ..oh look at me im rich...is the most rediculous thing ive ever seen. The mindset of some people is so messed up nowadays that certain people only care about making money. MONEY ISNT EVERYTHING..NEVER WILL BE. Your thinking proves my point. Fluf Fluff gave out 3-8k to different people, it was a gesture. It wasnt anything other than that. He chose to do something else with his money. Whats 3-8k going to do for most players...nothing. It only helps the people with little to no money, and id be willing to make a safe guess that hardly anyone who got the money was actually broke. A gesture..somethign nice..thats it.

To me if you argue for Fixing the economy, that only means you want to be able to make your money when you want and how you want it. Whats for dessert?

2. Redristribution of supply isnt as simple as your statement suggests. If you hand out 5000 ecto to 500 people at 10 ecto a piece, chances are they will spend those ecto towards armor. But if you had out 500 ecto to 10 people, chances are they are going to use that ecto to buy high end weapons. You see where that ecto goes as apposed to the first? Its goes typically back into people who have a lot of ecto/wealth. Which they in turn typically hold it. Supply all the sudden is affected not always by how much is out there (total supply) but more on how much of total supply is available for exchange. This is extremely different than saying...."its just got spread out." Its not even as simple as i tried to explain things....

draxynnic · Mar 23, 2009, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Something curious I noticed on the weekend...

The price of ecto spiked up to 5.5k on one day, then promptly sank back to 4.6 less than 24 hours later.

Did someone actually try this?

Koning · Mar 23, 2009, 12:57 PM // 12:57

I would wait untill the next update in April. If shadowform gets nerfed, the supply of ectos greatly decreases and the impact of your 'bail out' would be greater. Many people are not able to farm anymore if their god mode disappears, so supply decreases.

Chthon · Mar 24, 2009, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koning

I would wait untill the next update in April. If shadowform gets nerfed, the supply of ectos greatly decreases and the impact of your 'bail out' would be greater. Many people are not able to farm anymore if their god mode disappears, so supply decreases.

Any impact on the price of ectos resulting from a Shadow Form nerf will be based on a panicky perception of scarcity, not reality. In reality, so many ectos were already farmed and horded before perma-SF that it only accounts for a tiny fraction of the supply out there. In reality, there's dozens of non-SF ways to farm ectos.

SmartBomb · Mar 24, 2009, 03:10 AM // 03:10

I would join in with this bailout idea but I have been severely effected by the fallen in-game economy.

The new line of mini pets should get the economy back up a bit too.

Hanok Odbrook · Mar 24, 2009, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koning

Many people are not able to farm anymore if their god mode disappears, so supply decreases.

Wait a minute!!! You mean that UB was actually not God Mode, but it was SF all this time??!!! I demand that UB be un-nerfed on the grounds of being falsely accused of bringing countless hours of easy to play joy and entertainment to the masses!!

But anyway, as has been said many times before in any thread about the supposed problems with the economy, GW has no real economy that needs fixing. A true economy is based upon the concept of supply and demand with the assumption that supply has some kind of finite limit and that some sort of demand will always be present, at the core level. Since there is no such limit to nearly anything in GW, there is no way to fix an economy that does not truly exist.

Quite frankly, I find the attempt to manipulate ecto prices unimpressive. If someone wants to achieve a truly impressive feat, let's see them spike the cost of Bones to a few hundred gold, or even a platinum. THAT would be a feat worthy of song.

Hanok Odbrook

byteme! · Mar 24, 2009, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koning

I would wait untill the next update in April. If shadowform gets nerfed, the supply of ectos greatly decreases and the impact of your 'bail out' would be greater. Many people are not able to farm anymore if their god mode disappears, so supply decreases.

Shadowform represents like .01% of all the builds capable of farming ectoes. Nerfing SF will affect speed clears not the supply of ecto. Not even close. I can list a ton of builds off the top of my head. At least 1 build per profession minus paragon. (can't think of 1 but probably does exist)
If you're uncertain I can provide links and templates just to prove my point.

refer · Mar 25, 2009, 06:06 AM // 06:06

I'm not rich, so correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a limit on how much gold you can have on your account? If that's the case then they should do away with the limit, then people won't hoard money substitutes with no fixed value (unless they're greedy).

Improvavel · Mar 25, 2009, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by refer

I'm not rich, so correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a limit on how much gold you can have on your account? If that's the case then they should do away with the limit, then people won't hoard money substitutes with no fixed value (unless they're greedy).

Yes there is a limit of 1000 platinum on the chest +100k in each character.

Your idea on the other hand won't make any difference. The ectos people have hoarded are but a pebble on all the ectos that can potentially be farmed.

So it is not like those ectos are creating a shortage on the general population.

Nerf on farming builds or on drop rates, on the other hand, will increase the value of those hoarded ectos and so making those players even richer.

Although I don't know exactly why they want to be richer since they already control most of the limited mini pets and limited weapons that don't drop anymore.

All the other items will keep dropping and increase in supply, slower or faster, but increasing.

As people have said, GW economy isn't economy at all. It is more a measure of how much time it takes to get something, call it armor or item skin.

Aeon221 · Mar 26, 2009, 12:51 AM // 00:51

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=172

I've blathered about the utility of upping ecto prices before, so I'm in favor of the idea in principle. In practice, you simply won't have sufficient market power to actually change anything.

draxynnic · Mar 27, 2009, 01:56 AM // 01:56

The weakness I see in your thesis?

In the real world, there was a fairly constant supply of gold. While new gold is still being mined, the total amount of gold available to be used as money was reasonably static.

In Guild Wars, though, there has been a constant influx of ecto (and pretty much anything else that gets used as a medium of trade) into the economy. While the price per unit of ecto has gone down, the addition of further ecto into the market - much faster than the addition of new gold in real-world economies - means that the total money supply has probably in fact gone up. This is doubly the case when you also consider the amount of ordinary gold also constantly entering the market.

The reason prices have gone down is due to their own supply/demand curves - supply of just about everything is increasing, while demand is decreasing as more of the people who are willing to pay price X already have all of item Y they want. As for the low-end trades that you're claiming doom and gloom over - I haven't noticed any real change in their frequency. Getting your niche items like a shocking hammer mod (been there, done that) through the trade channel was far from easy before the release of Factions, but through asking around in the right channels it was possible to acquire one in short order. I'm sure the same is true today - and probably for roughly the same price as it was back then.

Besides, I'm not convinced that purely inflationary measures really do anything but artificially increase inflation without actually doing anything to improve the economy. Look at Zimbabwe - can anyone really say that increasing the money supply has helped there? No, all it's done made the situation worse by adding hyperinflation to the existing problem.

But my point is... even if we assumed it did work, it's not applicable to Guild Wars, because the money supply in Guild Wars is still increasing even if the prices of individual units (such as ectos) drop - because that drop in price is almost always balanced by a much greater increase in supply. Those items that are limited in supply are, as has been observed, still constantly increasing in price, which seems to me to be further indication that the money supply is increasing rather than decreasing.

Hanok Odbrook · Mar 27, 2009, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Well, there's also the fact that the population of Guild Wars is increasing at a much slower rate than the influx of gold/items (if it still is increasing at a measurable level at all), whereas in the real world the population size makes has a much larger impact on economic value.

Plus there's the simple fact that high end items are not valued solely upon the absolute number of ectos it is worth but the monetary value that the ectos represent. So, in essence, we have no backing to the monetary system used in GW - there is no standard to set the value of a gold piece. When the value of ectos decreases, a seller simply increases the required number of ectos needed to buy the item to compensate. So the base value of items really doesn't change, but merely the required amount of compensation needed to purchase said item.

We also have to remember that there is no unemployment in GW, nor really any class system as we think of it in the game. Any player can have a source of income at any time, and they are in complete control as to how much and how long they bring in that monetary flow. There is also no tax system in the game either - one can think of the gold sinks as a "tax" but aside from the plat or scroll needed to enter the UW or FOW, every single gold sink in this game that I can think of is non-essential and completely up to the player to use them or not.

Hanok Odbrook

BulletStopper · Mar 28, 2009, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Ever notice how these type of threads are solely about the ecto, because people have hoarded them?

Nobody whines about the much larger drops in value of "stuff"
Let's look at some classic examples
Superior Absorpsion rune - before factions ~95k at the trader/now - 100 gold
Elemental sword - a req 13 non perfect caster sold here on 1 Sep 07 for 100k+5 ecto/now - 3-5K if you are patient

Basically EVERYTHING that that isn't a finite number (rare minipets) has devalued as more come into the gameand less people attempt to buy them.

WOW! supply and demand - with an endless supply and a decreasing demand.

Here is some ideas that truly would drive prices up.

Adjust the monsters to STOP UWSC Add a skill like Soulrending Shriek at the top of the stairs and at random locations in UW. No more enchantment based farming!
/whine - "But I only play GW anymore to do UWSC!"

Cap the amount of everything in GW Once XXX number of ecto and other stuff is in play (including gold) no more drop! Doesn't this sound like fun! To truly make the whiners get vocal add a message stating what they would have gotten!

Remove ALL NPC traders from the game You want my "stuff", you have to pay what I am willing to sell!

/whine - "But I want MORE traders, not less! Where is the inscription trader I've been whining about!"

To me, this whole thread, and the many like it are truly a case of Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it!

Grj · Mar 28, 2009, 11:40 AM // 11:40

I love how people are asking for build nerfs stateing the "economy" and oh noes ecto prices!.

Remember when ecto was 13-15k each and the 55/invimonk whatever its called took off back in the day?

Ecto's took a nose drive then, but i guess people where too busy farming their asses off to care.

BulletStopper · Mar 28, 2009, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grj

Remember when ecto was 13-15k each and the 55/invimonk whatever its called took off back in the day?

Ecto's took a nose drive then, but i guess people where too busy farming their asses off to care.

I was one of those 55ers, lol. So Anet nerfed Protective Bond and the number of monks cut in half overnight.
Those that remained adapted and used Protective Spirit.
So Anet added the Dieing Nightmare to stop the 55 monk.

Asplode · Mar 28, 2009, 03:09 PM // 15:09

We already have a continuous economic stimulus bill in action: Xunlai Tournament House.

lol monthly welfare check for everyone.

HawkofStorms · Mar 28, 2009, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Yes there is a limit of 1000 platinum on the chest +100k in each character.

Your idea on the other hand won't make any difference. The ectos people have hoarded are but a pebble on all the ectos that can potentially be farmed.

So it is not like those ectos are creating a shortage on the general population.

Nerf on farming builds or on drop rates, on the other hand, will increase the value of those hoarded ectos and so making those players even richer.

Although I don't know exactly why they want to be richer since they already control most of the limited mini pets and limited weapons that don't drop anymore.

All the other items will keep dropping and increase in supply, slower or faster, but increasing.

As people have said, GW economy isn't economy at all. It is more a measure of how much time it takes to get something, call it armor or item skin.

Actually, I think getting rid of the money cap is a good point. I mean, it's the fact that ectos are used as a currency that causes ectos to be so valued. People who want silverwing bows and stuff need to hoard ecto to buy them. I mean, a lot of people who don't even farm UW and have FoW armor already (like power traders) or have no interest in getting FoW have tons of ectos just because of trading.
Of course, if anything this would cause ecto prices to drop more, since then more people who have an abundance of ecto and just want cash could sell to the trader. Still, the point of the hard limit on cash a character can hold was designed to limit the value items were traded for. And that clearly didn't work.

Aeon221 · Mar 29, 2009, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

The weakness I see in your thesis?

In the real world, there was a fairly constant supply of gold. While new gold is still being mined, the total amount of gold available to be used as money was reasonably static.

Flat out untrue. The supply of gold in circulation has always been increasing as there aren't very many ways to destroy it while still getting value. Unlike ecto, which does have several ways to destroy it for value.

Quote:

In Guild Wars, though, there has been a constant influx of ecto (and pretty much anything else that gets used as a medium of trade) into the economy. While the price per unit of ecto has gone down, the addition of further ecto into the market - much faster than the addition of new gold in real-world economies - means that the total money supply has probably in fact gone up. This is doubly the case when you also consider the amount of ordinary gold also constantly entering the market.

Declining prices on literally everything fairly clearly indicate that per capita money has gone down.

Quote:

The reason prices have gone down is due to their own supply/demand curves - supply of just about everything is increasing, while demand is decreasing as more of the people who are willing to pay price X already have all of item Y they want. As for the low-end trades that you're claiming doom and gloom over - I haven't noticed any real change in their frequency. Getting your niche items like a shocking hammer mod (been there, done that) through the trade channel was far from easy before the release of Factions, but through asking around in the right channels it was possible to acquire one in short order. I'm sure the same is true today - and probably for roughly the same price as it was back then.

If that were the case, old unfarmed items would slowly go up in value over time as the overall number available declined due to players leaving the game (and thus taking their items with them) while new players entered. Instead, despite the lack of farming and the utility of many old items, their prices remain crap and they cannot be found.

Quote:

Besides, I'm not convinced that purely inflationary measures really do anything but artificially increase inflation without actually doing anything to improve the economy. Look at Zimbabwe - can anyone really say that increasing the money supply has helped there? No, all it's done made the situation worse by adding hyperinflation to the existing problem.

I'm not really concerned with what convinces you. Individuals without significant economic training often make poor calls on whether or not something is a good idea because they rely on flawed "common sense" judgments rather than economic logic.

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/...09/spn0901.pdf

IMF briefing on risks of deflation. 3% inflation is considered healthy. Guild Wars doesn't have inflation, so prices drop and markets fail.

Quote:

But my point is... even if we assumed it did work, it's not applicable to Guild Wars, because the money supply in Guild Wars is still increasing even if the prices of individual units (such as ectos) drop - because that drop in price is almost always balanced by a much greater increase in supply. Those items that are limited in supply are, as has been observed, still constantly increasing in price, which seems to me to be further indication that the money supply is increasing rather than decreasing.

You're assuming that money supply increases just because more ecto enter the system. The current steady ~5k price indicates that there must be about the same number of ecto entering as there are leaving circulation, or the price would change. Money supply cannot, therefore, be increasing. It remains static, and as a result markets begin to fail. Push up the price slowly over time and people will start spending more.